I'm pro-choice.

[jazzfish]

There's not much else that needs to be said, but why let that stop me.

The decision to terminate a pregnancy involves two people: the woman whose pregnancy it is, and Nobody Else.

Abortion clinic protesters and firebombers, and other such domestic terrorists acting in the name of saving unborn babies, would be better served attacking in vitro fertilization clinics. Of course, if they did that they wouldn't get to feel all superior by shaming the dirty sluts.

Not that the anti-choicers have any semblance of moral consistency in any case.

Really, the minute you make an exception "in cases of rape or incest" you've given up on the whole "it's a child not a choice" nonsense. Murder is murder; why are you punishing an unborn child for having a rapist for a father?

Ezra Klein is a smart guy. I'm happy to see him attack the "abortion is icky" thinking that pervades a great deal of pro-choice dialogue.

Happy anniversary, RvW. May you see many more.

Comments

[laughin.livejournal.com]

I am pro-choice, but I don't like abortion and I think that is the way many people are.

My niece had an abortion and it upset me greatly.

But this is a fight that neither side will "win" because each side is looking at the issue as choice or life. Does that make sense?

[jazzfish]

I am pro-choice, but I don't like abortion and I think that is the way many people are.

I can understand that. The point of Ezra's post was that he sat down and tried to figure out why he didn't like abortion, and couldn't come up with any coherent rationale for it.

My niece had an abortion and it upset me greatly.

Why? I don't mean to be rude; I'm honestly curious. What about it upset you?

But this is a fight that neither side will "win" because each side is looking at the issue as choice or life. Does that make sense?

It makes sense except for the utter incoherence of the "life" position. See above re: fertility clinics and "my abortion is ok!" It took me a long time to recognise that these are people who aren't interested in "life," they're interested in stopping (other) people from having Teh Sex.

[vvalkyri.livejournal.com]

Later in the discussion on Ezra's page someone put it fairly well -- no, an abortion (particularly sufficiently early) doesn't kill an actual child, but it does end the potential of one. Another person posed the query, "when someone has a miscarriage do you expect her to just shrug and say 'better luck next time'?"

I have to run to work so I can't really write more.

[nixve.livejournal.com]

Well, no, no one should be so crass as to tell someone who has had a miscarriage that they should just shrug it off. But the difference between someone who had a miscarriage and someone getting an abortion is that the person who had the miscarriage wanted the potential child and the person getting the abortion doesn't want the potential child (at that time). Each should be dealt with, with the appropriate tact, respectful of the woman's choice of family planning.

[vvalkyri.livejournal.com]

Exactly. But not everyone's emotions and decisions are so clear. And in terms of why someone might be upset when a neice ends a pregnancy I was able to see a lot of possible reasons other than "ew, abortion's an awful horrible thing" that might inspire upset, several of which laughin explains below.

If you think I'm arguing against abortion being safe and legal you're incorrect. But at least in my own case I do prefer a prevented pregnancy to an ended one.

[jazzfish]

Some of this is me trying to sort it out in my own head, so should you feel inspired to write more, go for it.

I guess . . . I feel that not liking other people's abortions because it's ending a potential child is similar to the people who get upset when someone else's long-term relationship or marriage breaks up. They're not invested in it, and by expressing their discomfort at the situation they're making it difficult for the person/people who /are/ invested in it to make that decision rationally.

(None of this applies, of course, if someone actually having an abortion is feeling conflicted or upset. She is perfectly allowed to, and entitled to support and sympathy, because, again, I'm not the one going through it so I'm not entitled to say "You shouldn't be feeling like this.")

("You shouldn't have to feel like this" is a completely different thing and is intended to be blaming cultural pressures and not the woman in question.)

[laughin.livejournal.com]

Why? I don't mean to be rude; I'm honestly curious. What about it upset you?

No problem.

1. I was trying to get pregnant with #2 baby and it was not as easy as #1 & #2 pregnancy.
2. My daycare provider cannot get pregnant and loves children and wants more, (she has one adopted child). Now she is thinking she will have to go overseas to get another child. I guess that is why abortion hurts me. I see so many people who want children who cannot physically have them and then I see an irresponsible teenager get pregnant because they are not thinking of the consequences. It is one of those life is not fair things.

It makes sense except for the utter incoherence of the "life" position. See above re: fertility clinics and "my abortion is ok!" It took me a long time to recognise that these are people who aren't interested in "life," they're interested in stopping (other) people from having Teh Sex.

I can get into this huge discussion about pro-choice being a poor term for some of the people who believe in a woman's right to choose abortion, but not a woman's right to choose things like, how to protect herself (gun control), and such. But I guess calling yourself "Pro-choice in cases of a woman deciding to have an abortion or not" is a little too long.

[nixve.livejournal.com]

So... the idea of a woman shooting someone who is threatening her life, home and livelihood is just fine, but the idea of a woman ending a pregnancy that is threatening her life, home and livelihood is somehow icky and shameful?

[(Anonymous)]

Where did you get the concept of icky and shameful in the comment to which you just responded?

[vvalkyri.livejournal.com]

Where did you get the concept of icky and shameful in the comment to which you just responded?

[laughin.livejournal.com]

No. You must not have read everything I wrote. Go back and read.

(Stupid LJ not taking my comments - I apologize if this gets posted multiple times)

I am pro-choice, but I don't like abortion and I think that is the way many people are.

My niece had an abortion and it upset me greatly.

But this is a fight that neither side will "win" because each side is looking at the issue as choice or life. Does that make sense?

I can get into this huge discussion about pro-choice being a poor term for some of the people who believe in a woman's right to choose abortion, but not a woman's right to choose things like, how to protect herself (gun control), and such. But I guess calling yourself "Pro-choice in cases of a woman deciding to have an abortion or not" is a little too long.

[laughin.livejournal.com]

By the way, in case you forgot, I HAD an abortion or so it was called on my medical paperwork when I had an ectopic pregnancy and had to end the pregnancy because:

1. It was not viable.
2. I could have lost a tube or died.

It was not shameful, but it was icky in the sense that I wanted the child and it ended up putting me in the psych hospital.

[laughin.livejournal.com]

Oh hell. Sorry to get so emotional about that. Sorry for the above nastiness.

[jazzfish]

Thank you.

I can get into this huge discussion about pro-choice being a poor term for some of the people who believe in a woman's right to choose abortion, but not a woman's right to choose things like, how to protect herself (gun control), and such.

Since that's not actually related to abortion in any way, can I assume that you concede that the right-to-lifers are, collectively, a bunch of incoherent hypocrites on the subject of abortion?

[laughin.livejournal.com]

I don't really think that. There are a few I would describe that way. Misguided may be a term I would use or ignorant.