I'm pro-choice.

[jazzfish]

There's not much else that needs to be said, but why let that stop me.

The decision to terminate a pregnancy involves two people: the woman whose pregnancy it is, and Nobody Else.

Abortion clinic protesters and firebombers, and other such domestic terrorists acting in the name of saving unborn babies, would be better served attacking in vitro fertilization clinics. Of course, if they did that they wouldn't get to feel all superior by shaming the dirty sluts.

Not that the anti-choicers have any semblance of moral consistency in any case.

Really, the minute you make an exception "in cases of rape or incest" you've given up on the whole "it's a child not a choice" nonsense. Murder is murder; why are you punishing an unborn child for having a rapist for a father?

Ezra Klein is a smart guy. I'm happy to see him attack the "abortion is icky" thinking that pervades a great deal of pro-choice dialogue.

Happy anniversary, RvW. May you see many more.

Comments

[laughin.livejournal.com]

I am pro-choice, but I don't like abortion and I think that is the way many people are.

My niece had an abortion and it upset me greatly.

But this is a fight that neither side will "win" because each side is looking at the issue as choice or life. Does that make sense?

[jazzfish]

I am pro-choice, but I don't like abortion and I think that is the way many people are.

I can understand that. The point of Ezra's post was that he sat down and tried to figure out why he didn't like abortion, and couldn't come up with any coherent rationale for it.

My niece had an abortion and it upset me greatly.

Why? I don't mean to be rude; I'm honestly curious. What about it upset you?

But this is a fight that neither side will "win" because each side is looking at the issue as choice or life. Does that make sense?

It makes sense except for the utter incoherence of the "life" position. See above re: fertility clinics and "my abortion is ok!" It took me a long time to recognise that these are people who aren't interested in "life," they're interested in stopping (other) people from having Teh Sex.

[vvalkyri.livejournal.com]

Later in the discussion on Ezra's page someone put it fairly well -- no, an abortion (particularly sufficiently early) doesn't kill an actual child, but it does end the potential of one. Another person posed the query, "when someone has a miscarriage do you expect her to just shrug and say 'better luck next time'?"

I have to run to work so I can't really write more.

[nixve.livejournal.com]

Well, no, no one should be so crass as to tell someone who has had a miscarriage that they should just shrug it off. But the difference between someone who had a miscarriage and someone getting an abortion is that the person who had the miscarriage wanted the potential child and the person getting the abortion doesn't want the potential child (at that time). Each should be dealt with, with the appropriate tact, respectful of the woman's choice of family planning.

[vvalkyri.livejournal.com]

Exactly. But not everyone's emotions and decisions are so clear. And in terms of why someone might be upset when a neice ends a pregnancy I was able to see a lot of possible reasons other than "ew, abortion's an awful horrible thing" that might inspire upset, several of which laughin explains below.

If you think I'm arguing against abortion being safe and legal you're incorrect. But at least in my own case I do prefer a prevented pregnancy to an ended one.

[jazzfish]

Some of this is me trying to sort it out in my own head, so should you feel inspired to write more, go for it.

I guess . . . I feel that not liking other people's abortions because it's ending a potential child is similar to the people who get upset when someone else's long-term relationship or marriage breaks up. They're not invested in it, and by expressing their discomfort at the situation they're making it difficult for the person/people who /are/ invested in it to make that decision rationally.

(None of this applies, of course, if someone actually having an abortion is feeling conflicted or upset. She is perfectly allowed to, and entitled to support and sympathy, because, again, I'm not the one going through it so I'm not entitled to say "You shouldn't be feeling like this.")

("You shouldn't have to feel like this" is a completely different thing and is intended to be blaming cultural pressures and not the woman in question.)

[laughin.livejournal.com]

Why? I don't mean to be rude; I'm honestly curious. What about it upset you?

No problem.

1. I was trying to get pregnant with #2 baby and it was not as easy as #1 & #2 pregnancy.
2. My daycare provider cannot get pregnant and loves children and wants more, (she has one adopted child). Now she is thinking she will have to go overseas to get another child. I guess that is why abortion hurts me. I see so many people who want children who cannot physically have them and then I see an irresponsible teenager get pregnant because they are not thinking of the consequences. It is one of those life is not fair things.

It makes sense except for the utter incoherence of the "life" position. See above re: fertility clinics and "my abortion is ok!" It took me a long time to recognise that these are people who aren't interested in "life," they're interested in stopping (other) people from having Teh Sex.

I can get into this huge discussion about pro-choice being a poor term for some of the people who believe in a woman's right to choose abortion, but not a woman's right to choose things like, how to protect herself (gun control), and such. But I guess calling yourself "Pro-choice in cases of a woman deciding to have an abortion or not" is a little too long.

[nixve.livejournal.com]

So... the idea of a woman shooting someone who is threatening her life, home and livelihood is just fine, but the idea of a woman ending a pregnancy that is threatening her life, home and livelihood is somehow icky and shameful?

[(Anonymous)]

Where did you get the concept of icky and shameful in the comment to which you just responded?

[vvalkyri.livejournal.com]

Where did you get the concept of icky and shameful in the comment to which you just responded?

[laughin.livejournal.com]

No. You must not have read everything I wrote. Go back and read.

(Stupid LJ not taking my comments - I apologize if this gets posted multiple times)

I am pro-choice, but I don't like abortion and I think that is the way many people are.

My niece had an abortion and it upset me greatly.

But this is a fight that neither side will "win" because each side is looking at the issue as choice or life. Does that make sense?

I can get into this huge discussion about pro-choice being a poor term for some of the people who believe in a woman's right to choose abortion, but not a woman's right to choose things like, how to protect herself (gun control), and such. But I guess calling yourself "Pro-choice in cases of a woman deciding to have an abortion or not" is a little too long.

[laughin.livejournal.com]

By the way, in case you forgot, I HAD an abortion or so it was called on my medical paperwork when I had an ectopic pregnancy and had to end the pregnancy because:

1. It was not viable.
2. I could have lost a tube or died.

It was not shameful, but it was icky in the sense that I wanted the child and it ended up putting me in the psych hospital.

[laughin.livejournal.com]

Oh hell. Sorry to get so emotional about that. Sorry for the above nastiness.

[jazzfish]

Thank you.

I can get into this huge discussion about pro-choice being a poor term for some of the people who believe in a woman's right to choose abortion, but not a woman's right to choose things like, how to protect herself (gun control), and such.

Since that's not actually related to abortion in any way, can I assume that you concede that the right-to-lifers are, collectively, a bunch of incoherent hypocrites on the subject of abortion?

[laughin.livejournal.com]

I don't really think that. There are a few I would describe that way. Misguided may be a term I would use or ignorant.

[idoru.livejournal.com]

Mm, I saw a "Pro-child | Pro-choice" bumper sticker, and I liked that. Pro-choice is NOT pro-death.

Anyway, semi-related semi-anecdote. I don't know if Mrs. Martin was at TJ when you were, but GOD that woman was annoying. Converted to Catholicism and wouldn't shut up about it. We had a random, pick-your-topic project back in world history & geography [addit'l social studies requirement]. I chose the history of herbal/chemical contraceptives! She was like OKAY COULDN'T YOU PLEASE DO LIKE THE HISTORY OF INFERTILITY TREATMENTS INSTEAD, THAT IS COOL TOO RIGHT? But I stuck to my guns, so there.

[jazzfish]

That is an excellent bumper sticker. It is even more awesome than my previous favorite, "Against Abortion? Don't Have One."

And good lord that woman sounds creepy. I don't think she was around when I was; I definitely never had her myself. But, wow.

[dasphios.livejournal.com]

Actually, there's quite a bit more that needs to be said. You claim you're pro-choice, and I salute you for having the courage to voice your beliefs- even if they are nearly universal. Who, save perhaps a handful of authoritarians, is not pro-choice? No one. Of course, you're not talking about choice, you're talking about abortion. A common enough mistake these days, but you've got the brains to hold yourself to a higher standard. As a person who is staunchly in favor of choice, life, and setting argumentative cowards on fire, it's my duty to ask you the same question I ask the pro-lifers: If your beliefs on abortion are so strong, why do you not have the courage to come out and call it what it is?

[rbandrews]

My guess would be because "pro-choice" sounds like "have an abortion if you want" and "pro-abortion" sounds like "have an abortion because your genetic material is unworthy". That's the connotation I would get, at any rate.

[dasphios.livejournal.com]

It's a big leap from legal support to eugenics, but it's an even bigger one from reproductive freedom to freedom in general.

[rbandrews]

But the connotational leap from abortions to choice has already been made. You say "pro-choice", everyone knows what you're talking about. He's using the terminology that's out there, that's all.

[nixve.livejournal.com]

Abortion is a choice. It is not the only choice. Pro-choice people support the availability of choices. Abortion is one of those. It happens to be the only one that is generally fought against (although birth-control and adoption have their opponents as well) so it is the main issue that pro-choice proponents have to argue for.

Also, not everyone who is pro-choice is pro-abortion. Pro-abortion implies that you would choose abortion, which maybe you wouldn't necessarily, but you can still be pro-choice in that you support making abortion available to those that may choose it.

I can't vouch for anyone other than myself but I am pro-choice and pro-abortion.
Different people will give you different answers, it depends on the person, really. Implying that all pro-choicers are cowards for not using the term "pro-abortion" is presumptuous and rather rude. Being pro-choice is not all about abortion, it just includes abortion.

[dasphios.livejournal.com]

Well now, that's funny, because on my home planet (Earth), it's considered presumptuous to take a phrase whose meanings could apply to virtually ANY situation and insist that its only meaning is in a narrowly specific field, when a more descriptive and more specific phrase would serve just as well- if not better. A person faces thousands of choices in everyday life. Where to go, what to do, whether and what to say. How many of those involve abortion to even the slightest extent? Do you support the availability of the choice to walk down the street shooting random people? How about the choice to rob a bank, or toss your neighbor into a pool of sulfuric acid? Or even overturn Roe v Wade? They're all choices, they're all bad ideas, and I'd frankly be very surprised if you'd even want to argue for them.
I will concede that the term "pro-abortion" could be misinterpreted as more than a legal belief, and I'll certainly admit that "pro-abortion legality" is far too cumbersome. But that doesn't mean an overgeneralized substitute is an acceptable one.

[jazzfish]

If your beliefs on abortion are so strong, why do you not have the courage to come out and call it what it is?

Because I don't believe in everyone having an abortion. For one thing, it's a tricky business for half the population.

I believe that every woman should have the right to choose, for herself, whether or not to terminate her pregnancy. The need for a quick soundbite so that the television-watching masses will understand what we're talking about has reduced "pro-able-to-choose-an-abortion" to "pro-choice."