"Unless he is suffering, how can you be sure he is obeying your will?"

[jazzfish]

I occasionally get asked why I want to flee. My stock answer is "health care," which is true as far as it goes. If pressed I might go into the more general concept of a social safety net, and the idea that taxes are the price we pay to live in a civilised society.

All of that? After-the-fact rationalization. This is the real reason. And more. And. . . hell, just read most of yesterday and today's posts from Digby.

By May 2004 it was obvious that these sorts of things were going on, and were sanctioned by the government. And in November 2004 a majority of Americans said that was okay by them.

But everything changed in 2008, right? No. Nothing changed. Change would be at the very least a clear statement that these things were Wrong, that those responsible would be punished, and that safeguards would be put in place to ensure that nothing like this would happen again. Instead we get the lie that "The United States does not torture," reassurances that no one will be prosecuted, and no changes.

I have no use for people who can't or won't say, "This is wrong."

(There's a longer, more personal, post gestating on why I take this so personally. Or maybe not; it may end up being too personal to share at all. The heavily shortened version is that powerlessness, and abuses of power, are highly triggery things for me.)

Comments

[daghain.livejournal.com]

By fleeing you may find people with cleaner recent history, but I question how different they'll be deep down inside.

"Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." -Goering

Replace 'war' with 'torture' and I think the point still holds.

[ndkid.livejournal.com]

This was my initial thought, as well; thank you for expressing it more eloquently than I would have.

[daghain.livejournal.com]

You're quite welcome. Stole it from the comment section here (http://ta-nehisicoates.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/04/torture.php). ;)

[jazzfish]

Same response applies.

[jazzfish]

I think there are differences: differences in culture at the very least, that can produce different approaches to problems, and different outcomes. And different leaders, with different temperaments, of course.

I may be wrong. But at least I'll be wrong someplace where I won't have to worry about going bankrupt from medical bills.

[ndkid.livejournal.com]

That's true. And the majority of places an English-speaker would look to flee to have proportional representation, which, at the least, gives you more varieties than what Gaiman so wonderfully phrased as "'So, would you like Right Wing, or Supersized Right Wing with Extra Fries?"

(Of course, that notion is part of why I can't grok the hope that change will come from within either side of our two party system; the false dichotomy leaves both entities better off maintaining the system that exists.)

The UK does have an educated worker program, and the bar one has to manage to be eligible for it isn't overwhelming.