"Unless he is suffering, how can you be sure he is obeying your will?"

[jazzfish]

I occasionally get asked why I want to flee. My stock answer is "health care," which is true as far as it goes. If pressed I might go into the more general concept of a social safety net, and the idea that taxes are the price we pay to live in a civilised society.

All of that? After-the-fact rationalization. This is the real reason. And more. And. . . hell, just read most of yesterday and today's posts from Digby.

By May 2004 it was obvious that these sorts of things were going on, and were sanctioned by the government. And in November 2004 a majority of Americans said that was okay by them.

But everything changed in 2008, right? No. Nothing changed. Change would be at the very least a clear statement that these things were Wrong, that those responsible would be punished, and that safeguards would be put in place to ensure that nothing like this would happen again. Instead we get the lie that "The United States does not torture," reassurances that no one will be prosecuted, and no changes.

I have no use for people who can't or won't say, "This is wrong."

(There's a longer, more personal, post gestating on why I take this so personally. Or maybe not; it may end up being too personal to share at all. The heavily shortened version is that powerlessness, and abuses of power, are highly triggery things for me.)

Comments

[silmaril.livejournal.com]

I have this dream, that I acquired this morning when I listened to the radio and had to forcibly restrain myself from shouting back at dumb electronics, that they are building up to something bigger---they'll release more memos, keep not prosecuting the ones whose hands held the cloth and the water, and let them have their (*ack ptui*) "following orders" (*ack ptui*) defense until they build up to prosecuting the bigger fish. Or bigger mold slime, "fish" is too advanced, but you know what I mean.

It's a dream. I can hang on to it a little longer.

[jazzfish]

It's a good dream. I'd like to think it's true.

(I don't, but I'd like to.)

[pictsy.livejournal.com]

This is how I feel about animal testing and vivisection.

[jazzfish]

I can understand that. It's something I've not yet forced myself to consider. (I can also understand if you consider that to be ethically irresponsible.)

[vond.livejournal.com]

"Forced myself to consider" is a good term, all this racism/sexism stuff in my face lately has given me some really uncomfortable thoughts, and this is the same way. That way lies self-hatred :(

[jazzfish]

I'd really like to respond to this, but I'm not sure where to begin. Other than, at least in my experience with unconscious racism/sexism, it's more about admitting where I've screwed up and trying not to do that again ("Fail better"), rather than sinking into the "no use even trying, I'm doomed" morass.

I'd be happy to kick around thoughts on either or both at some point.

[pictsy.livejournal.com]

I don't even really consider it as much as I feel I should. It's one of those things in the back of my mind that I assure myself I'll take more action on someday.

[ancientsong.livejournal.com]

This!

[jadelennox]

I wanted the disillusionment to hit after, I don't know, six months. Not-quite-three is just much too early.

*cries*

[jazzfish]

Utterly agreed.

It was a nice almost-three-months, though.

*offers shoulder*

[rbandrews]

I still don't regret my vote. I just refuse to believe that McCain/Palin wouldn't have been worse.

[jazzfish]

I don't regret my vote in the slightest. Things either aren't getting any worse, or are getting worse more slowly.

I just wish it had done more.

[rbandrews]

Yeah, I hear that. I'm also more than a little pissed off about the net neutrality thing. It was a large part of why I voted for him, and since he's been in office he's appointed how many RIAA lawyers into his administration?

/me reads too much BoingBoing, I guess.

[daghain.livejournal.com]

By fleeing you may find people with cleaner recent history, but I question how different they'll be deep down inside.

"Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." -Goering

Replace 'war' with 'torture' and I think the point still holds.

[ndkid.livejournal.com]

This was my initial thought, as well; thank you for expressing it more eloquently than I would have.

[daghain.livejournal.com]

You're quite welcome. Stole it from the comment section here (http://ta-nehisicoates.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/04/torture.php). ;)

[jazzfish]

Same response applies.

[jazzfish]

I think there are differences: differences in culture at the very least, that can produce different approaches to problems, and different outcomes. And different leaders, with different temperaments, of course.

I may be wrong. But at least I'll be wrong someplace where I won't have to worry about going bankrupt from medical bills.

[ndkid.livejournal.com]

That's true. And the majority of places an English-speaker would look to flee to have proportional representation, which, at the least, gives you more varieties than what Gaiman so wonderfully phrased as "'So, would you like Right Wing, or Supersized Right Wing with Extra Fries?"

(Of course, that notion is part of why I can't grok the hope that change will come from within either side of our two party system; the false dichotomy leaves both entities better off maintaining the system that exists.)

The UK does have an educated worker program, and the bar one has to manage to be eligible for it isn't overwhelming.