(no subject)

[jazzfish]

Gah. Rant about Tcon for vt_komainu composed and wiped, because I am a twit. The short version consisted of "I'm sorry, I forget that there are people who are still idealistic about Tcon, but my experiences as staff were unpleasant. Ask Emily for more details, although she'll talk your ear off."

Reading went decently well. Attendance consisted of the Tuesday Night Music Club plus Ross and (later) Shawn Lassiter. Stuff was read. It was cool.

In retrospect it's just as well that I didn't finish Kierkegaard for today; Bliss is sick. Not that I'd be able to get back to sleep, though.

Comments

[tango.livejournal.com]

You can always e-mail and talk my ear off that way, I generally prefer to hear direct from the source. We're working to try and improve Technicon and with the staff changes each year (notably the recent addition of SOAP to the staff) we don't always know what people felt was broken previously. If we just hear "it's needs to change" or "nothing's changed" but no one tells us what they didn't like, we can't make effective imrpovements.

[jazzfish]

*nod* I would have emailed you, but it got lost in the transition from LJ comment-space to email. (copy entry, close comment window, look for your address, find a message from you in the trash, copy your email address... DOH!) And I couldn't bring myself to write it all up again, because it was quite enough fun the first time around. Insert boilerplate rant about being senior staff and getting no respect here.

In terms of Con itself, Panels are personally my biggest gripe. Panels are historically poorly-attended, with the notable exceptions of the two midnight ones, but staff sees them as the Whole Point Of Con. Gaming is exiled to Festhall (although admittedly there's not much of a better place to put it in Red Lion), and Spiel, despite high attendance and requests for a quieter room than FH, is told "Go live with gaming or get a hotel room." (Part of the Spiel problem this year may well stem from Nathan being a dork and not doing his bloody job.)

Re:

[tango.livejournal.com]

I asked at a Spiel meeting if Spiel wanted a room or was willing to go in the Fest Halle with everyone else - the response I got, with the President there, was that Spiel was willing to go with everyone else.

[jazzfish]

By "Room" do you mean a hotel room, or (to use last year's example) the behind-the-bar room? If hotel room, then yeah, fest hall with the rest of gaming is definitely the way to go. Space issues aside, that way we don't get told "Oh yeah, and now pay us for your room" like we did two years ago. OTOH, if you mean the behind-the-bar room then ... then it's clearly out of my hands. A bad judgement call on the president's part (imo) but his call to make.

Re:

[tango.livejournal.com]

It was meant like a behind-the-bar room.

[(Anonymous)]

I know I'm randomly barging in on a private conversation, but as Tucker wasn't there and I was... The consensus went something like "If there is a room we'd use it and be happy to have it but it's up to you guys." This is for two good reasons:

Mainly: We're Spiel. We bring games someplace, we play them. The minimal politics and minimal effort involved in that is a reason Spiel exists and continues to exist. It requires games, a place, a communication vector, and a quorum of people. That's all. Our "official leaders" are required to do only slightly more than your average slug, most of it throwing out irrelevant university mailings, and we like it that way. I've been in and around enough other clubs imploding, alienating members, bifurcating, stopping and starting up again, and the cause has always been either the work involved, or the politics of the work involved. I like it that Spiel can avoid these things, but it does make it difficult to interface with Technicon's facet of reality, where 3-6 months of heavy planning end in 3 days of event, versus around 5 minutes per person of casual planning -> several hours or more of event. End rant.

And complicating factor: A significant number of Spiel-attendees / Spiel-officers in attendance at the time were also involved in Con at that time and had other ideas for uses for that particular room / any similarly sized room. Certainly those people weren't going to fight tooth and nail for that room to be taken away from, well, them, and the rest of us were even less likely to start fighting tooth and nail *against* other people in the room we tolerate reasonably well. (Note that we are apathetic in the first place.)

So in sum: If we have a room, we'll use it. If we have to engage in politics or do work to get said room, we're probably not interested. The grumbling you hear is just the natural grumbling of those who would prefer to have a thing fall into their lap and are disappointed when it doesn't. The people saying, "I will boycott Technicon because they are rat bastards" are generally those who have tried to care and make effort and been chewed up and spit out by the politics, rather than those of us who have chosen not to try. As one of the latter, I give T-Con my $28, I get a college reunion with some provided entertainment, I'm basically happy. I can understand very much why the others aren't, and that's why I don't get involved in the first place.

--Kayla

[cxi162.livejournal.com]

The people saying, "I will boycott Technicon because they are rat bastards" are generally those who have tried to care and make effort and been chewed up and spit out by the politics, rather than those of us who have chosen not to try.

I will agree with pretty much all of your post except for the above. It is my opinion that there is very little politics involved and most of it is simply due to personal issues with individuals that get blown out of proportion.

[jazzfish]

It is my opinion that there is very little politics involved and most of it is simply due to personal issues with individuals that get blown out of proportion.

*shrug* You say tomato, I say evil red fruit. If the way to get things done is to ego-stroke Certain Individuals, then that sounds suspiciously like politics to me.

Devil's advocate for panels

[kittykatya.livejournal.com]

Hi!

You'll hopefully forgive me for intruding on this one, but it's got me to thinking. :)

In terms of Con itself, Panels are personally my biggest gripe. Panels are historically poorly-attended, with the notable exceptions of the two midnight ones, but staff sees them as the Whole Point Of Con.

They're not? *just kidding* "Historically" is a bit broad of a word, since it really doesn't allow for objective measure. Panel attendance over the last 20 years of Tcon: traditionally strong. Panel attendance over the past four to five years: a bit spottier. There have been some panels that have gotten a strong response, but these tend to be the new, nifty panels. (the Battlebots panel last year, for instance) Some of the traditional ones just don't work anymore.

The problem is that it's sometimes hard to find the balance. You have to plan for those fen that are there to do nothing but game, those that are planning on being couch potatoes in the video rooms, those that are LARPers, and those that flit from place to place like butterflies with ADD. If you push one section too hard, you risk alienating support that the convention needs.

Gaming is exiled to Festhall (although admittedly there's not much of a better place to put it in Red Lion), and Spiel, despite high attendance and requests for a quieter room than FH, is told "Go live with gaming or get a hotel room."

Sadly, this is a problem with the function space. If we were back in Donaldson Brown (in the grand days when they weren't offices and we all got along), I think that Spiel would have a much easier time of it. However, since there currently isn't another place aroundthat can handle our requirements and not charge us an arm, a leg, and the con chair's first-born, we're stuck with the awkward spacing at RL. As it stands, decisions have to be made (see that balance thing up there) and it looks like quieter gaming gets the fuzzy end of the lollypop more often than not.

Now, here's an odd thought: has Spiel ever run panels before? I mean more than just "here's an overview of gaming and our club". More that sort of "Here's this new game: let's walk you through a few scenarios for a few hours and if you want to play longer, we'll be up in the Festhalle"? Admittedly, my head for past programming is fuzzy, but I've been relegating myself to the video room. (It's safer. :) )

An alternate is perhaps a compromise on room payment, where either Tcon and Spiel split the cost or it could be a sponsorship sort of deal like, "if you can bring in this many attendees, the room is free." That may sound a little outlandish, but rooms and budget don't always cuddle up.

Just a few thoughts -- take with appropriate salt lick. :)

Re: Devil's advocate for panels

[jazzfish]

Sure; other perspectives are welcome.

The problem is that it's sometimes hard to find the balance. (snip)

This is very true. But I feel like social boardgaming (as distinct from role-playing or wargaming) has had a bigger presence at Tech in the past few years, and that it can be a draw at Tcon much like any given panel. And last year I think it was; there were *always* (except for 2-10 AM) upwards of a half dozen people in the room, and not the same people.
The lack of room this year can apparently be traced back to Kayla's post above.

Sadly, this is a problem with the function space.

Agreed, in a big way. (Then I say "Maybe it's time to leave B-burg" and someone says "We're here for the students and the money that Tech will give us" and I say "That sounds shortsighted" and then we agree to disagree, as I have neither the time nor inclination to research the budget situation and draw my own conclusions.)

On Spiel panels: this was kicked around a couple years ago. It never got anywhere that year due to apathy; it was never revived because, when Emily submitted write-ups for scheduled games/tournaments, they were ignored and/or rewritten for program book, and it seemed like a lot of effort to go to just to be ignored. Plus programming has, in the past couple of years, been done at the last minute by con staff, and no one on our end was willing to figure out who it was, figure out who on our end was willing to run panels on what, and get all that information to the person doing programming *and* convince them to add it in.

The room copay is also a neat idea, and we might well be up for that next year. Depending on how the politics on our end shake out, of course.

Again, thanks for your input!

Re: Devil's advocate for panels

[vond.livejournal.com]

I think last year and this year as well, we've discussed how nice it would be if we could use the multi-club aspect to get over the $1500 Event Funding cap. The general response has been "we're not sure", because we've thought that that cap might be applied to a single event.

As for leaving town, it's not short-sighted at all, if you understand the actual goals of the con. Technicon isn't supposed to grow into a massive ubercon with thousands of attendees. We're not trying to make money. We don't want to become a corporate entity or an offical nonprofit. We're trying to stay under the radar of the IRS, and under the umbrella of Tech's tax status. If the goal is to make a good business, we should start from scratch with a new name (for back-tax reasons), incorporate, elect a board, etc. Or you could just try to help Rising Star grow, since it's already setup for all these things that Technicon isn't supposed to be. This is my understanding of why Tcon won't leave (besides the things you said, of course).

[laughin.livejournal.com]

Kayla and Barb both had excellent points. I agree with the chicks.

As someone who is advisor for Spiel, has been on TCon staff, and is a non-SciFi person (I know... it's the 8th sin), here is my 2 cents, (and I want it back when you are done).

IMHO, in the past, the issues have been money. I believe there was some accountant dude who was not reliable. I remember when John was president, he didn't want to raise admission prices because of the students. At the same time, they didn't have money to bring in guests. The other thing they did little of was marketing... there are fresh meat... I mean students out there who TCon needs to market to. VT Cable was cheap to advertise on, and when I was on staff we did that. Also, I believe BT is a lot more lax on who can advertise on the buses.

Personally, since I am not a Sci-Fi fan, I will probably not go to TCon. I can play games at other times, and I don't want to pay money to see friends. However, I am always willing to help out if needed.

Barb's point about a gaming panel seems cool. Maybe trends in the industry or how to game for fun and profit.

Hopefully, if the town and the DMV get off their arses and get their act together, there may be a new convention center TCon can use. AmeriSuites had some rooms and stuff too, but since I am not in the TCon loop, I do not know if that has been checked out of not. They may also be handicapped-accessible.

And you know, there are people who are idealistic about TCon, in the same way that all of us are idealistic about something. But sometimes it helps to bounce ideas off of those who are not closely involved.

If anyone wants to bounce this way, feel free.

Is it time to go home yet?

[rubinpdf.livejournal.com]

I believe there was some accountant dude who was not reliable.

Wasn't me!

IMHO, in the past, the issues have been money.

Speaking as a former accountant of Tcon (Tcon 9 thru 11 and Tcon 16 thru 19), there's no need for the Opinion portion of IMHO... TCon's biggest issue is money and it will likely always be money. The expenses for putting on a Tcon are phenomenal - somewhere in neighborhood of $10000). In order to not go into a tremendous amount of debt, sometimes we can't have all the guests or things we'd like (I know there are a number of people that would love to have Micheal Sheard back - but the cost would be huge - he needs to be flown in from Great Britain in case you didn't know).

That being said, IMHO as the accountant, Tcon was incredible fair to Spiel last year by allowing them 24 hr access to a Function Room. You must remember that the cost to Tcon for a function room is in the neighborhood of $600 for the weekend That means that Tcon believed enough in Spiel that they would generate enough interest to offset the cost of the room (by bringing in at least $600 in memberships). To me, that sounds like a mighty high compliment. I'm not on staff this year, but it sounds like Tcon was offering the same room again to Spiel this year (and turned it down in favor of space in Das FestHaus). Again, to me, Spiel should be incredibly honored that Tcon would put so much faith in them.

In all my time as staff, no one purposefully attempt to shaft any other person/group. In reality, it all came down to whether money could be found in the budget to support whatever was desired (though occasionaly a few miscommunications did pop up). I'm sorry that it has to all come down to dollars and cents, but that's the way of the world, and sometimes we just have to deal.

[jazzfish]

Tcon was incredible fair to Spiel last year by allowing them 24 hr access to a Function Room.

This is absolutely true, and was a wonderful thing.

it sounds like Tcon was offering the same room again to Spiel this year (and turned it down in favor of space in Das FestHaus).

This sounds true. I was unfortunately not at the turning-down, so I couldn't say "I would like to have the back room and would be willing to fight for it." (The downside of trying to stay out of the general, ineffective kvetching is that you miss when it turns into actual, effective planning.)

In all my time as staff, no one purposefully attempt to shaft any other person/group.(snip)

True. I think that the issues that I've had have been more about the communication and less about the money. (Having to pay for the hotel room two years ago being the sole exception that I can think of.) This year, it sounds like all the problems were on our end, but it's still hard to get out of the "Con screwed up" mindset. The fact that it wasn't intentional doesn't mean it doesn't cause friction.

Thanks for talking. I *do* appreciate it.

[(Anonymous)]

As I said, it felt more like an offer of "if you want to fight for this room, let me know" and no one in the room wanted to fight for it. It's a difficult room for us, mostly in the fact that we need more publicity in order to use it to what I'd consider to be the benefit of Con, and no one was there who was interested in committing to answer that problem. Nor did anyone there have the want to + capable of to fight for it. Had I known for certain how you felt, Tucker, I would have spoken up on your behalf, but all conversations about TCon tend to turn into general useless bitch sessions and/or TCon-lovers vs. ex-lovers brawls. And, you have to remember my spouse was among those who had personal detailed plans for the room. I didn't want to fight him for something when I didn't think (due to the publicity non-volunteers) that it might not be in the interest of the Con for me to win.

Very interesting, useful, rational discussion by the way. Congrats & thanks all.

--Kayla

[zerblinitzky.livejournal.com]

Dave wants the room for a LAN party, and Spiel wants the room for games. We both ask for it and neither of us get it. Had we worked together, one of us could have gotten it.
Hm. Dr. Nash would be proud...

[vond.livejournal.com]

I was hoping (and actually did some leg-work with appropriate parties) for a LAN party too, but if you'll recall, the LAN party idea was scrapped due to lack of appropriate power facilities, not lack of lobbying the right people. After all, if as you say I have the attention of the "old boys' club" and I was slapped down due to electricity reasons...

OTOH I didn't lobby for or against Spiel having anything, other than reminding Jesse about a month ago that Spiel hadn't actively said anything to the con org yet.

[wyrdone.livejournal.com]

Power issues aside. (And after my own investigation of the facilities at RLI....there is more than enough power in fest hall if you take into account the 220V 40Amp circuit feeding the stoves. And I have access to a 220V to 110V breakout box.)

The real issue, James dunson didn't want a "Lan Party", he wanted a bunch of communal machines people could play games on. I personally don't own that many stations (I could have ponied up 4 usable stations and could have possibly scraped together a couple more) and most everyone else won't donate a personal machine for public access. James did not want anyone to be able to bring their own machine and sit down and be able to play. 99% of LAN gamers won't come to event if you tell them they cannot bring their boxes with them.

Anyhoo, It's a moot point since I am going to be running a Lan Party on campus in Squires on Feb 22nd. And it will be a Free event that noone will have to ponie up a dime to get in the door. (Thank you Spiel!)

[vond.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, there was that too. The whole "con facilities should serve everyone, not just people who lug their machines in" thing. That's actually a good idea I think. There is a volunteer group that puts on that sort of thing in the area, but the machines they provide are really substandard (a lot of them are Macs, which just aren't optimized for FPS gaming to begin with). Too bad I can't attend the one in Squires, maybe next time. By the way, you might want to contact Vince Rivellino at CS - he's been planning for a long time to try to run bigger events in conjunction with the LUUG.