this is who we are

[jazzfish]

The crowd at Making Light continually humble me.

Terry Karney (pecunium) is a military interrogator. He's been arguing against the use of torture in interrogation on utilitarian grounds for at least as long as I've been paying attention (almost exactly three and a half years). I first saw him on ML; since then I run into him in other places every so often.

In the aftermath of Attorney General nominee Mukasey's waffling on whether 'waterboarding' constitutes torture (short answer: yes), Terry was drawn into a . . . 'discussion' with a contrarian on ML. In the course of the discussion Terry noted that if he were convicted of torturing someone, the ML commenters would hardly rally round him; they'd 'toss him out.'

Which prompted Xopher to pen a comment here that just about took my breath away. Buried in all the moral muck in that thread, in the depressing midst of having a discussion about whether it's okay to force confessions out of suspected criminals, there's this amazing beacon of love and support. Just . . . wow.

---

As for the utilitarian argument ("torture doesn't work"), even Quentin Tarantino concedes it: "You torture that guy long enough, he's gonna tell you he started the goddamn Chicago Fire. Now, that don't make it fucking so!" Every single professional involved with gathering intelligence, from the Spanish Inquisition on down, has come to the same conclusion: torturing people for intelligence provides bad intelligence.

Which is, ultimately, beside the point. Terry has to make the utilitarian argument because the people he's dealing with simply don't care about the moral aspect. That it is /wrong/ to do these things to another human being doesn't penetrate.

This is something that I just cannot comprehend. The idea of mistreating someone powerless squicks me on a visceral level. I am wholly unable to see the viewpoint of anyone who thinks that this is ever a good idea. Do these people not have any compassion? Or do they just think that 'terrists' are automatically subhuman, and deserve it?

I understand the desire for revenge. I also understand that curbing that desire is a large part of why we have laws in the first place.

See especially Robert Farley: "You see, the misconception here is that torture is designed to elicit information." Also James Killus (in a comment at ML): "The mere fact that the U.S. sponsors torture causes pain to one side of the culture war (you know who you are). And The Other Side likes that it causes you pain. It's meant to hurt you, plain and simple. They hate you that much."

How did this happen?

Comments

[pictsy.livejournal.com]

Most people don't understand how I can feel this way about animals.

[ancientsong.livejournal.com]

Right there with you.

[vond.livejournal.com]

Actually, animal rights brings up an interesting thought. It seems to me that everyone has a distinct level below which they believe it's okay to really viciously abuse other life forms. Most, but not quite all, people are okay with cutting down poor defenseless plants in their parks and gardens. Then there's a smaller group that really doesn't care how poorly animals are treated (Michael Vick what?). And then we finally get to these people that think that other humans who don't subscribe to their viewpoints, or look different, or any "are a threat" in this case, are acceptable targets.

[pictsy.livejournal.com]

It's all about the "Other."

[mikailborg.livejournal.com]

I was playing Devil's Advocate once. Someone was going about bestiality - which I do not actually support - on the grounds that the animal could not consent.

I asked, "Do you like hamburgers?" The answer was yes.

I continued, "Do you figure that that cow, given a choice, would rather you have sex with it than kill it and grind it up for food?" That stopped conversation for a bit.

And yes, I do like hamburgers.

huh.

[stormking.livejournal.com]

Now that is a truly interesting argument.

[rbandrews]

I wish this were Reddit, so I could vote you up.

[jazzfish]

I do, actually. It makes sense to me. I can only get around it myself through a great deal of wilful ignorance. I'm pretty sure that one of these days it's going to catch up with me regardless.

As you say, it's all about the Othering, and a lack of empathy.

[pictsy.livejournal.com]

I'm bad enough myself, buying animal-tested products for the sake of convenience or economy. I try to go cruelty-free when I have the option, though. Same thing with sweatshop clothing.

[callmetc.livejournal.com]

I think we got here because the people currently in charge would provide a different answer to the following question than you: "Imagine a situation where killing one person is *guaranteed* to save the lives of ten thousand. The person has done nothing wrong. The killing will be quick, and after the fact the 10 thousand lives saved will be widely acknowledged as having been the work of killing the one person. Is it moral to kill in this situation?"

I believe that the current administration would ultimately answer yes to this question. Further, I believe they view the torturing debate in the same light. To them, the lack of absolutes is simply a messy detail that doesn't change the moral situation.

And thus, people are reduced to the utilitarian argument that torture doesn't work, because they cannot come to an agreement on the moral terms.

[salzara-tirwen.livejournal.com]

"Imagine a situation where killing one person is *guaranteed* to save the lives of ten thousand. The person has done nothing wrong. The killing will be quick, and after the fact the 10 thousand lives saved will be widely acknowledged as having been the work of killing the one person. Is it moral to kill in this situation?"

I believe that the current administration would ultimately answer yes to this question.

Well, they do pretend to be followers of a guy that got himself nailed to a tree to, basically, accomplish the same thing for everybody, not just 10 thousand people.
Too bad they don't actually pay attention to anything this character actually did or said. But yes, they think it's good (for someone not them) to be a martyr and thus ok (for them) to make martyrs.

[uilos.livejournal.com]

It's one thing to allow yourself to be nailed to a tree. It's an entirely other thing to nail some guy to a tree against his wishes. But all people seem to get is the 'nailed to a tree part'.

[jameshroberts.livejournal.com]

This administration has _also_ said it's wrong to destroy life to save life in its argument against stem-cell research, a direct contradiction to its justification of torture.

[(Anonymous)]

It's all about presumed innocence. They think stem cells are people, and people of the holiest sort: they haven't even begun to differentiate into cells that they can "sin" with. Whereas the living people the cells could save have been walking around being naughty for years or (usually) decades.

Same with torture. The administration assumes that accusation is proof of guilt. Heck, it assumes ethnic backround is proof of guilt. Guilt, then, justifies the destruction of naughty people in order to protect Shiny Americans (TM).

-salzara_tirwen (can't log in)

[rbandrews]

What a great icon.

[jazzfish]

Thing is, these are hypotheticals with zero basis in reality. It is never-- never-- that cut-and-dried. If you have the resources to save the ten thousand, the killing of the one is irrelevant. Likewise the ticking bomb scenario that comes up a lot in torture justification: if your intelligence is good enough that you know this guy knows where the bomb is, it's good enough to know where the bomb is.

With some distance from it (having not read the comments on Making Light, or anywhere else, for a few days), I can only come up with two possibilities. As you say, they may be that ethically deluded; they may have slid so far down that slope that they view torturing suspected terrorists/criminals, and imprisoning them without trial, and so forth, as necessary to protect Americans. Or they may view such things as necessary to keep everyone else cowed and unwilling to speak out. Or both, I suppose.

Ultimately it doesn't matter. I've come through moral relativism to the belief that there are things that are simply Wrong, and these are several of them. It still shocks and saddens me every time I see them happening, though.

[nixve.livejournal.com]

Killing/toturing one person to save the ten thousand.
I can't believe it took me a few days to remember this: we are the ones who are walking away from Omelas.

point to you!

[jazzfish]

I didn't bring it up at the time because I still can't say with any certainty that I /would/ walk away. But, yes, very much so.

Re: point to you!

[nixve.livejournal.com]

Well, it never said that the people walking away knew where they were going or what they were even going to do next, just that they were walking away. So, I think I'd walk away.

[dasphios.livejournal.com]

How did this happen?
Do you really think you want the answer to that?

[jazzfish]

*shrug* Step by step, the same way such things always do. "The banality of evil." I know. Some days it's harder to accept than others.